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urmas
From: Estonia
Posts: 205
Hi,

I've read from several sources that the steel behaves plastically at sub-micron level. Natural clay is very plastic substance... so I have decided to play a little with clay. I wanted to see what cannot be seen optically and feel how the very top of the edge is behaving during the "sharpening" process. It was interesting and instructive, I recommend you try it. I'm sorry, the pictures are not very good, because I was in a hurry. Besides, the images, even if they have better quality, do not convey all the information that you see yourself through doing it.

My observations were:
1. The edge is very best just when the sides of bevel will meet together. When you then proceed with honing the edge will be little less nice, not much but little. You can easily restore the very best state of bevel by imitating dulling on glass action and doing some normal honing strokes. Dulling on glass action has a somewhat hidden asset - it smooths out, consolidate the tip of the edge.
2. Outstanding results can be achieved by combining normal strokes with some amount of backstrokes. Backstrokes will give you a finer edge than using normal strokes only. I speculate that this is the reason why the half strokes and Emmanuel's elliptical circles working so well - since both of those methods contain backstrokes within itself.
3. Using backstrokes only will inevitably lead you to weak and or microchipping edge, which is unusable for shaving.
4. You can imitate the microchipping with clay model. Only thing you need to do, is let the clay rawling to dry a little before performing the experiment.

The results are here:

1. The rawling:


2. The first strokes:



3. The initial bevel is done:




4. The stropping is imitated:




5. The dulling on class action is imitated:



6. You see results of a excessive backhoning:






The bigger pictures are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29949251@N02/sets/72157626406048348/detail/

Regards,
Urmas
2011-04-02 10:53
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geruchtemoaker
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 693
this is very interesting.
I only have one question I see you use a rasp(I think it's called like this in English) but this is a "hone" that only works in one direction. so as for the backstrokes did you implement this in you experiment? because if you performed backstrokes like you would do on a normal hone which has a two way action you could get a significant difference, because no or only very little material will be removed.

kind regards
Stijn
The Bible and several other self help or enlightenment books cite the Seven Deadly Sins. They are: pride, greed, lust, envy, wrath, sloth, and gluttony. That pretty much covers everything that we do, that is sinful... or fun for that matter. - Dave Mustaine
http://www.artisanshaving.org
2011-04-02 11:23
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urmas
From: Estonia
Posts: 205
Hi Stijn,

I simply turned the rasp around 180 degrees and changed the stroke direction too.
I'm also don't know is the "rasp" right word in English. :)
But anyway - I think that rasp with rounded cutting edges is well suitable for simulating coticule honing (coticule garnets are oval too).

Regards,
Urmas
2011-04-02 11:47
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geruchtemoaker
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 693
yes I think it is especial for clay.
I wasn't that I didn't trust in your experiment it could be that it slipped you mind and it would be sad to have this nice experiment give false results due a stupid mistake
The Bible and several other self help or enlightenment books cite the Seven Deadly Sins. They are: pride, greed, lust, envy, wrath, sloth, and gluttony. That pretty much covers everything that we do, that is sinful... or fun for that matter. - Dave Mustaine
http://www.artisanshaving.org
2011-04-02 12:01
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
Urmas, you always come up with these great ideas.:thumbup:

It is interesting to compare your clay models to SEM pictures of the real thing.

This is a SEM Picture from prof. John D. Verhoeven's "Experiments on Knife Sharpening"

I think that your clay models illustrate several of the discussed principles very well.

Thank you for sharing,

Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-04-02 12:28
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
Urmas,

Very interesting - and thank you for sharing this. I have a couple of questions.

iconurmas:

1. The edge is very best just when the sides of bevel will meet together. When you then proceed with honing the edge will be little less nice, not much but little.


Could you elaborate a bit more about why that ("little less nice") is? Also, honing you mimicked with a grate, how did you do stropping?

Thanks!
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-04-03 03:16
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urmas
From: Estonia
Posts: 205
Thanks friends!

********
Stijn, this "experiment" was only very rough reflection of reality and that means results are anyway false by unknown amount. Well, and that means - no worries at all. :)

********
George,
By little nicer edge, I meant that the tip of the edge was more uniform, more smooth... the difference of higher and lower points on tip of the edge was smaller.
That "stropping" I performed by help of my palm.

*********

Please, do not be so focused on the images, because those are only still moments. Much more important was ability or opportunity to see how the edge responds to real-time "honing".
For example, before this I don't realize clearly that the very tip of the edge gets almost direct impacts form higher points on hone surface and this alternates it so dramatically. How to exploit this knowledge, I'm not sure at moment. Perhaps, that confirm the necessity of right amount of back-honing.

Regards,
Urmas
2011-04-03 11:56
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Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3610
Very interesting indeed :)

I did something similar with cheese a while ago

The word you are all looking for is I think "grater"

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2011-04-03 12:11
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Emmanuel Giannoulakis (Emmanuel)
Advisor
From: Greece
Posts: 942
Hi Urmas.I think every body learns something by such kind of experiments.I would be happy if I saw what kind of Imprint leave the elliptical strokes.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Emmanuel Giannoulakis
from Athens Greece
2011-04-03 21:08
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urmas
From: Estonia
Posts: 205
Ralfy,
Thanks for right word.

****

Emmanuel,
I'm afraid that elliptical circles cannot be done with this setup - since grater has only one way cutting ability. Anyway, I would assume that the back-honing component in circles will give somewhat finer edge at the end. If I am doing this clay game next time, I will try this by just in case.

Regards,
Urmas
[Last edited by urmas, 2011-04-04 19:32]
2011-04-04 11:01
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Emmanuel Giannoulakis (Emmanuel)
Advisor
From: Greece
Posts: 942
Thak you very much Urmas.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Emmanuel Giannoulakis
from Athens Greece
2011-04-04 22:11
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
There is a kind of grater with holes that would allow elliptical motions. Most of these 4-sided trapezoid graters have such a pattern on one side.

Here's a picture:


Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-04-05 01:29
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Emmanuel Giannoulakis (Emmanuel)
Advisor
From: Greece
Posts: 942
iconBart:
There is a kind of grater with holes that would allow elliptical motions. Most of these 4-sided trapezoid graters have such a pattern on one side.

Here's a picture:


Kind regards,
Bart.


Bart I think you are more resourceful than me.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Emmanuel Giannoulakis
from Athens Greece
2011-04-05 01:35
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urmas
From: Estonia
Posts: 205
Thanks for the recommendation, but there are a couple of drawbacks with this grater, which is why I initially left it out:

1. It has a triangular, sharp cutting edges and therefore it may be suitable for simulating a artificial hone (those have abrasive particles with a sharp edges), but it is not good choice for simulating a natural hone.
2. The second, even more important reason is that most probably the clay will fill or clog up this grater at once and there will be no more cutting action but smearing action.

Anyway, I will try it and will take some pictures for you.

Regards,
Urmas
2011-04-05 09:49
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Emmanuel Giannoulakis (Emmanuel)
Advisor
From: Greece
Posts: 942
Thanks Urmas.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Emmanuel Giannoulakis
from Athens Greece
2011-04-05 20:29