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RazorEmporium
Posts: 3
iconBart:
By the way 1:
iconRobin:
Links to the MFG entries in SRP's razor database would have been useful.

Links to SRP are never useful. What they accomplish is that they reinforce a forum where a few guys monopolize the truth in function of their own petty agendas (read: business interests). As useful (a fraction of) the information found there may be, it preys upon too many former members who've been silently banned when it so suited those that hold power buttons over there. And that information is mixed with nonsense that serves to lure newly arriving straight razor users into a grotesque kind of consumerism, that I consider far more blasphemous to the nature and tradition of these old-fashioned tools, than the replacement of scales by new ones with unhistorical colors.

Bart.


I think this is one of the most concise and rational explanation of what most "shaving forums" really are- wolves in sheep's clothing. I love when forum mods claim "We're protecting our members from DANGEROUS vendors by banning them!!" when really they are protecting their own interests and those of their fellow cartel friends.
2011-11-10 04:37
Avatar
RazorEmporium
Posts: 3
iconbbr6704:
I find it fun, or maybie weird should be the word, to see people both saying "I use a straight because of tradition, using skills and objects from the pas, in an ecological way, and against consumerism, commercial policies of today's cartridge razor manufacturer", and that's why "I need, and you'll have to need, at least 10/20/50/100 differrent razors, brushes, soaps, strop, pastes, stones, after shaves... or you'll be a sad shaver, you wont be able to learn what is whet shaving..."

Consumerism, consumerism, consumerism,

Isn't this you were runing away from?

I'm personnaly definitely for the old way, even if I've allready got way too much razors... I wan't to try restauration : cleaning (not "erasing") the blades, ceaning the scales, only replacing the ones that needs replacement. But is that necessary for shaving? I'm sure no!

And that's why I only got one brush, one soap and a "travel cream tube", one paddle, and one after-shave.

I don't say that's the only truth, I mean, it's enought to get good shave, isn't that we're all looking after?

And I find customisation is vanity, and over all, a lack of respect to razors history (G10 scales, etc, on blades over 200 years... flashy colors on wades...)


I 100% agree with this statement- it was the major inspiration for the article. I find myself to be a minimalist at heart. While I have had literally THOUSANDS of razors pass through my hands, I use 2 safety razors, 1 straight razor, 1 brush and I own 3 sharpening stones.
2011-11-10 04:44
Avatar
justalex
Posts: 80
iconQuote:
I find it fun, or maybie weird should be the word, to see people both saying "I use a straight because of tradition, using skills and objects from the pas, in an ecological way, and against consumerism, commercial policies of today's cartridge razor manufacturer", and that's why "I need, and you'll have to need, at least 10/20/50/100 differrent razors, brushes, soaps, strop, pastes, stones, after shaves... or you'll be a sad shaver, you wont be able to learn what is whet shaving..."


I'm not a big restorer/customizer but, I agree and disagree with the above. To learn what works for you, you need to experiment - to an extent - not to the extent that you would ever need more than two razors, but I have 3 hones, 20 razors - all ebay fixeruppa's (don't know if that counts as consumerism) - 7 that I shave with, 3 soaps (had more gave them away to friends who were just starting), 3 strops(one I made myself) and two brushes.

I can confidently say that I won't buy much of anything straight shaver related for the next ten years say, and that if anyone I know wants to get into straight shaving, I'll be happy to hand over one of my razors for them to get a start. I've already given 2 razors to my friends so they can get started.

What I'm saying is... straight razor shaving has a long way to catch up to the level of consumerism for cartridge razors that last a fraction of straights, cans of goop that last a fraction of puck soap and perform at a fraction of a straight razor as well. Could you imagine handing over 1 cartridge razor to your friend for nothing to get started? They cost the amount of 2 or 3 of my ebay razors, thats crazy! but the straight razor is worth alot more in my opinion, so for everything I buy - can't talk for everyone else - it'll get used... eventually, maybe a friend, relative or my future children hopefully. You can guarantee Nothing'll get wasted, unlike the disposable nature of cartridge shaving and its products.

my two cents... with change

kind regards, Alex

Oh and welcome to the forum Matt, your article is an interesting read :thumbup:
2011-11-10 11:45
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bbr6704
From: France
Posts: 55
Well of course, you ain't totally wrong in what you say, as I am certainly not totally right...

I also have something like 30 razors, as I've been touched by the "love of hunting" starghts in antiques stores and garage sales...

So I can't deny there's a kind of pleasure in go and hope to find a new nice razor... and to restaure it.

But, what I find unpleasant in this way is that there is a lot of unecessary stuff : I only own one brush, it suits me good, and I don't feel no need for another one untill the one I have is too used.

Idem for soap and cream, I've got a soap that works, a cheap palmolive cream for travelling, and that's allright.

3 AS as I could try them, and I found one in particular that I love (a home made bay rum by a member of Coupe chou Club, the franch straight razor forum).

But, for the razors : Of course, they are differences between some razor (for exemple, between a wedge and an singin...)

But I am also convinced that every razor is a good razor, in the way that it will shave you, and will do it fine.

Of course, some may suit you better than other, but, every one will be able to shave you fine, if honed a prepared correctly.

And what I dislike is the way some speak, meaning you need a lot of stuff to be fine, or you won't...

That the way I feel, especially for beginners : one good razor, easy to catch (I'd say a 5 or 6/8, hollowed, as they are easy to fine, to use and strop).

But as you can see on some forum, they are some "stuff of the month" posts : here is, to my point, the absolute nonsense of the thing : I bought this, I bought taht, "oh lucky you, I need this too...".

Well, not so important, but I don't like this business way of promoting straight or wet shaving...
2011-11-10 12:22
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Wim Decraene (decraew)
Insider +1
From: Belgium
Posts: 437
Personally I don't feel that owning lots or razors (like myself) can be called consumerism (it is not "consumed" after all), I call it collecting razors and I don't see anything wrong with that. On the contrary, every razor a collector buys and restores is a beautiful tool saved from oblivion. Of course, you only need one razor to shave with, but there's great fun and satisfaction to be had from collecting them.
2011-11-10 12:32
Avatar
justalex
Posts: 80
iconQuote:
But as you can see on some forum, they are some "stuff of the month" posts : here is, to my point, the absolute nonsense of the thing : I bought this, I bought taht, "oh lucky you, I need this too...".


I see your point, I think for some its a hobby. I played field hockey with my big brother for twelve seasons and every season he would buy the most expensive stick because he felt like trying a new stick to see if he could get a better playing experience, I think its the same with straight shaving.

I've had alot of moments with str8's, the moments when you think it can't get any better and it does is a great feeling. I think some people strive for that, which isn't a bad thing at all, as it more than likely improves the experience for other shavers if for instance, a new stropping material is found that can replace your 12k hone it would be fun if that happened but it might not be for everyone.

The diversity is what makes str8 shaving great. HAD, SAD, BAD and RAD are just side effects...
2011-11-10 14:18
Avatar
Pieter Ketelings (Pithor)
From: Finland
Posts: 83
After much frustration about the 'post reply' button once more eating my lengthy rant, here it is once more, revised and all. I apologise for its length and it sometimes sidetracking into a rant on my pet peeve, but I hope you'll all bear with me and I trust you all have an attention span of longer than two minutes.


I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that it is at least mildly hypocritical or at least untrue that many say that they shave with straights because "I respect the tradition and history of it, it is much more environmentally friendly, etc."

That is mostly just clear cut bullshit. The way the largest part of straight collectors and shavers approach the subject has nothing to do with honouring the history of it or higher ideals. It's more a vanity thing than anything else, and I admit that. I shave with a straight razor because I think it is cool and hope that some of its coolness rubs off on me. But I like to keep it in perspective, which seems very hard for some.

Just because shaving is nowadays considered an everyday chore - or ecstatic bliss as some will have you believe, blowing their digital wad over their own and other's 'Shave of the Day' - does not mean it was. In fact, it most likely wasn't. 'Back in the days' I doubt many people had over ten straight razors. Most pobably did not even own one, shaving was done by a barber. The richer, well-off folk probably went to see the barber more regularly, and might have a small collection of razors. A real gentleman probably would not even consider shaving himself. The less well-off people, when in need of a shave, not even remotely an everyday activity, went to a barber simply because it was much cheaper than a razor and equipment. Doubtfully even the barbers owned more than a good handful of razors and one, maybe two stones, let alone the average joe. I mean, why do you think scissors-grinder/sharpener was a reasonably normal profession up to around halfway of the 20th century?

We own luxury items. Some people closets full of them. Passing it off as pure nostalgia would be lying. Of course it has something to do with it, but not to the extent many profess it has for them. I admit that for me it is, in the end, not much more than vanity and a pass time. But I try not to turn it into something it is not: an accomplishment to be publicly displayed and admired.

To illustrate: I posted one such 'Shave of the Day' myself once, but felt it was uncomfortably exhibitionistic. I did it because I was very enthousiastic about shaving with my first restored (read: overly polished) and honed razor on my La Veinette. I'm still remotely proud of that, so sue me. But this is not my point.

My point is that I find it mind boggling that it seems commonplace to give people standing ovations for succeeding in (common) tasks. Sometimes it almost physically repulses me to see people in what I would call a shoulder-patting middle class circle jerk. People have this need to exhibit themselves, and others seem almost too eager to applaud that. It's like watching these shows where people lose lots of weight by 'rigorous training' and 'self-discipline' to create a better self for themselves . "I'm very happy for you," I think, "that you succeeded in trying to approach becoming the person you want to be by shedding blood, sweat and tears" But this shameless exhibition expose the facade of 'doing it for yourself' and show that really all it is is some sort of grotesque quest for approval fed by low self-esteem, or in a harsher term: vanity. People are very touchy and hypocritical about this when you point this out. The goal seems to justify the means, but in my opinion the means illustrate or even make up a vital part of the goal. It's not black and white. Same goes e.g. for the ridiculous admiration of 'best intentions'. But I digress.

This, in my opinion, grotesque applauding and public shoulder patting is visible in many ways, including the 'wet shaving community' (horrible term by the way, has someone already started The Church of Wet-Shaving? Jeez). It's like when at my age, a lot of friends or acquaintances are having children, and some of them suddenly seem to look down on you because "you have no idea how hard it is to raise children". These people tend to flock together, agreeing on how hard such a responsibility is, yet very important, special and rewarding. I bet it is. I know it is difficult, I heard the stories my mom and dad told about me when I was little. And I was a nice kid, go figure :). It's just that I resent, with a passion, the apparent self-evidence with which we should put such things on a pedestal and in whose presence whe should all bask in awe and grovel. Parenting on itself for me is not something to necessarily applaud, or even good parenting. I feel that that is what you owe your child, that you really do the best you possibly can and then some more. And I respect that. It's just that many people are so full of them selves about being this or doing that what really gets on my tits. It is not that you do something well, beautifully, etc. what in my opinion is repulsive. It's the shameless exhibition that is involved in search for approval that is repulsive, the hypocricy that shows in this.

In short my point is: I don't think there's anything wrong with doing anything, be it collecting razors, raising children, running a marathon or whatnot, just don't be so high and mighty about it. Do it for the right reasons, and be honest at least to yourself about these reasons. People are too easily impressed and willing to show appreciation openly and grotesquely, because it is what they crave themselves.



That's my theory and I'm sticking with it :lol:. Be happy but don't be an ass. I just had to get that out of my system (I even wrote it twice), really I am a pretty jolly camper :rolleyes:.

Really, I am :P
Loose, footloose!
Put on the Sunday roast!
2011-11-10 14:18
Avatar
justalex
Posts: 80
brilliant post pithor, I like the skill of it and because as you said, its cool, and the alternative isn't good enough. Also, its cheaper and I was born in the wrong age - don't get me wrong I love the computer age, I have a computing degree and, so, automatically despise computers as they continuously break. Str8 razors - not only don't break - they work alot better and efficiently than its modern replacement.

I've got into the habit of looking at products these days and wondering if they've been produced to fill a hole in the market and to help the constomer or fill a hole in someone's pocket to help themselves to my money, disregarding the consumer.

think this thread's went a bit off topic, but I don't think anyone's noticed...:blink:
2011-11-10 14:33
Avatar
Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 4839
Post of the month, perhaps even of the year. Here's a pat on the shoulder,:thumbup:
;)

I agree with your sentiment Pieter. But let's not forget: the Art of living, is primarily the art of living with ourselves, to convince ourselves the choices we have made have been the right ones, the path on which we find ourselves the righteous one, etc. A lot of what we can read on Internet forums (regardless the topic) is inspired by that particular desire for self-affirmation. It is also the underlying motive for many of the more epic forum battles: we don't always like that others put "their way" in the middle of "our road", which leads to clashes of ideas and schools of thought. And where schools take form, you'll find evidence of peer affirmation, a.k.a "circle jerking". Even Coticule.be does not escape that.


iconPithor:
After much frustration about the 'post reply' button once more eating my lengthy rant, here it is once more, revised and all. I apologise for its length and it sometimes sidetracking into a rant on my pet peeve, but I hope you'll all bear with me and I trust you all have an attention span of longer than two minutes.


I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that it is at least mildly hypocritical or at least untrue that many say that they shave with straights because "I respect the tradition and history of it, it is much more environmentally friendly, etc."

That is mostly just clear cut bullshit. The way the largest part of straight collectors and shavers approach the subject has nothing to do with honouring the history of it or higher ideals. It's more a vanity thing than anything else, and I admit that. I shave with a straight razor because I think it is cool and hope that some of its coolness rubs off on me. But I like to keep it in perspective, which seems very hard for some.

Just because shaving is nowadays considered an everyday chore - or ecstatic bliss as some will have you believe, blowing their digital wad over their own and other's 'Shave of the Day' - does not mean it was. In fact, it most likely wasn't. 'Back in the days' I doubt many people had over ten straight razors. Most pobably did not even own one, shaving was done by a barber. The richer, well-off folk probably went to see the barber more regularly, and might have a small collection of razors. A real gentleman probably would not even consider shaving himself. The less well-off people, when in need of a shave, not even remotely an everyday activity, went to a barber simply because it was much cheaper than a razor and equipment. Doubtfully even the barbers owned more than a good handful of razors and one, maybe two stones, let alone the average joe. I mean, why do you think scissors-grinder/sharpener was a reasonably normal profession up to around halfway of the 20th century?

We own luxury items. Some people closets full of them. Passing it off as pure nostalgia would be lying. Of course it has something to do with it, but not to the extent many profess it has for them. I admit that for me it is, in the end, not much more than vanity and a pass time. But I try not to turn it into something it is not: an accomplishment to be publicly displayed and admired.

To illustrate: I posted one such 'Shave of the Day' myself once, but felt it was uncomfortably exhibitionistic. I did it because I was very enthousiastic about shaving with my first restored (read: overly polished) and honed razor on my La Veinette. I'm still remotely proud of that, so sue me. But this is not my point.

My point is that I find it mind boggling that it seems commonplace to give people standing ovations for succeeding in (common) tasks. Sometimes it almost physically repulses me to see people in what I would call a shoulder-patting middle class circle jerk. People have this need to exhibit themselves, and others seem almost too eager to applaud that. It's like watching these shows where people lose lots of weight by 'rigorous training' and 'self-discipline' to create a better self for themselves . "I'm very happy for you," I think, "that you succeeded in trying to approach becoming the person you want to be by shedding blood, sweat and tears" But this shameless exhibition expose the facade of 'doing it for yourself' and show that really all it is is some sort of grotesque quest for approval fed by low self-esteem, or in a harsher term: vanity. People are very touchy and hypocritical about this when you point this out. The goal seems to justify the means, but in my opinion the means illustrate or even make up a vital part of the goal. It's not black and white. Same goes e.g. for the ridiculous admiration of 'best intentions'. But I digress.

This, in my opinion, grotesque applauding and public shoulder patting is visible in many ways, including the 'wet shaving community' (horrible term by the way, has someone already started The Church of Wet-Shaving? Jeez). It's like when at my age, a lot of friends or acquaintances are having children, and some of them suddenly seem to look down on you because "you have no idea how hard it is to raise children". These people tend to flock together, agreeing on how hard such a responsibility is, yet very important, special and rewarding. I bet it is. I know it is difficult, I heard the stories my mom and dad told about me when I was little. And I was a nice kid, go figure :). It's just that I resent, with a passion, the apparent self-evidence with which we should put such things on a pedestal and in whose presence whe should all bask in awe and grovel. Parenting on itself for me is not something to necessarily applaud, or even good parenting. I feel that that is what you owe your child, that you really do the best you possibly can and then some more. And I respect that. It's just that many people are so full of them selves about being this or doing that what really gets on my tits. It is not that you do something well, beautifully, etc. what in my opinion is repulsive. It's the shameless exhibition that is involved in search for approval that is repulsive, the hypocricy that shows in this.

In short my point is: I don't think there's anything wrong with doing anything, be it collecting razors, raising children, running a marathon or whatnot, just don't be so high and mighty about it. Do it for the right reasons, and be honest at least to yourself about these reasons. People are too easily impressed and willing to show appreciation openly and grotesquely, because it is what they crave themselves.



That's my theory and I'm sticking with it :lol:. Be happy but don't be an ass. I just had to get that out of my system (I even wrote it twice), really I am a pretty jolly camper :rolleyes:.

Really, I am :P
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-11-10 15:18
Avatar
Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3606
Hey

I like the shave of the day, well the one I host at Shave ready, and the one hosted by my friend Teiste at Froafeitado, I cant comment on any others, and I am certainly no exhibitionist, nor do I wish to feed anyones acquisition disorder, I enjoy it because I feel its a nice way to share something we all do, its that simple

Quite frankly I find some of those sentiments offensive

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2011-11-10 21:34
Avatar
TM280
Insider
From: Norway
Posts: 270
Ralfy,

You make me want to start posting a "shave of the day"...:)

regards,
Torolf
2011-11-10 22:23
Avatar
Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3606
iconTM280:
Ralfy,

You make me want to start posting a "shave of the day"...:)

regards,
Torolf


;)



http://www.shaveready.com/showthread.php?t=1507&page=5

My warmest regards
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2011-11-10 22:28
Avatar
Paul
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 1388
Ralfy,

I've always been told that if something offends you then it's your job to get over it... And for a long time I agreed with that. In fact, not too long ago, I'd have said the same thing.

However, I have come to realize that people cannot control their emotions and when being unjustly lumped into a category by others, it is offensive...

It's very easy to pass judgment on others, but it's very hard to accurately assess someone's motivations without them telling you precisely what their thought processes are. I don't enjoy SOtDs very much (hardly ever post them), but I know many do. I wouldn't dream of assuming that all of those who do post in them are exhibitionists who are fueling a consumeristic machine. In fact, if you look at them long enough, you'll see quite a bit of repition of the same gear with different guys... It's about the experience, not the kit.

While not offended, I'm with you in saying a lot of these comments are unjust.

Regards,


Paul
Paul
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" - Greg Anderson
my blog- and it works again :p
2011-11-10 22:33
Avatar
Pieter Ketelings (Pithor)
From: Finland
Posts: 83
Dear all,

After a just rebuke by Ralfy, and good points raised by Paul, I wish to add some nuance to my previous post, which was written very much from the gut and turned out to be more of a hyperbolic vent/rant than I had intended.

First of all, I have to agree with both Paul and Ralfy that my typification of SOTD's was too generalising, and I see why I may have caused some people offence. I admit I was too inaccurate and some of my statements were rather sweeping.

My point was not that exhibitionism (which I still do consider SOTD's to be) as such is a bad thing. As an amateur actor and a general loudmouth clown it would be unforgivingly hypocritical of me to judge others negatively for being exhibitionistic. My point was more that I highly question some people's motives for being exhibitionistic - such as wanting to be part of the clique, seeking confirmation from 'the big boys', etc - and amitting that they are. I realise I should have gone for questioning people's motives than so blatantly condemning them.

I acknowledge that some people exhibit themselves more out of a sense of uncontainable enthousiasm, and I can only applaud that. Putting your character on show is, in my opinion, a laudible act. I realise that I was not clear enough in this, and was severly cutting judgmental corners, for which I apologise. I also admit I was too strong in my wording and I would not dream of having the arrogance to think I'm able to tell what goes on in people's heads.

To illustrate, exhibitionism for me is a rather neutral term, even though I do realise it may not be for most. In my opinion exhibitionism is completely inevitable in pretty much any social situation. Giving your opinion, interacting in a conversation, telling a joke, writing publications, as I see it, are all at least a mild forms of exhibitionism and definately not always bad. Just as, in my opinion, every act is its very essence selfish, by which I do absolutely not mean that it is impossible to do good. Just that, in the end, you do commit every act out of a highly personal motivation. Again, I treat it much more as a neutral term than most people do.

Oh, and I have absolutely nothing against parenting and regular, middle class people as such. I respect good parents, who also have a personality besides that of their 'parent self'. My point in this was that I just refuse to applaud people for the mere fact that they are parents. With of course the biological exceptions, everyone can be a parent. However, it takes character to be a good one.

Plus I have a serious problem with the glorification of being 'normal, common and middle class', and the arrogant monopolising of these terms by many people, pounding their own the chests in the process. People are people, and should be considered so, not being judged according to some abstract terms. I sincerely hope I am not a 'normal' person. I resent these terms on the whole, and if I use them I do so to provocate people, to actually make them think about them.

As I said in my previous post: Reasons matter, and the goal does not necessarily justify the means, since the means add meaning to the goal. Why someone does something influences my opinion on what they do. I realise this is hard to do, and I work with what I can see, which means I can be wrong and I am glady proved wrong.

I hope I have made myself clear, and realise I failed in that in my previous post. Thanks Ralfy and Paul for pointing out the main flaws in it.

By the way, Ralf, I hope that Huveso (I hope I read it right) shaves as good as she looks. And I must add, I appreciate you purposefully posting it, I'll take it it was meant as a sort of banter in reply to my post; I think it shows character. I think banter is a valuable tool in the toolbox of communication, and hope to engage in plenty around here.

A general note: Just take everything I say whith a big grain of salt, 90% of what I say is in some way an expression of my sometimes intransparent and strange sense of humour, i.e. me talking bullocks. If I offend you, let me know and I will try to clarify myself and possibly tone down in the future. I'm (in my own funny way) just looking to establish a level of communication.

Best possible regards,

Pieter


EDIT: Damn, I yap like an old lady. Sorry 'bout that :P
[Last edited by Pithor, 2011-11-11 13:29]
Loose, footloose!
Put on the Sunday roast!
2011-11-11 13:24
Avatar
BlacknTan
From: United States
Posts: 175
I read most of the threads here. Rarely, one may slip by. I enjoy all the comments. That doesn't mean I agree with all, but thankfully, I'm far enough down the road that I can appreciate those that differ from my own. The world would be an exceedingly boring place if we all thought alike. Too, different points of view cause on to reflect on our own long held beliefs. Thay may not change, but always food for thought...
I enjoy posting in "Shave of the Day.." I don't have the artistic abilities that the good Lord gave a slug, but SOTD pics are an outlet for what little there is. I don't have any very fancy blades to show off, and most products I use are quite mundane and workmanlike. I've led a blue collar life, and I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin.
When I first started posting SOTD pics, there was quite a nice group of gents on another forum. A very gregarious and friendly group... What was called "The Brotherhood," and with good reason!
I'm never one to push my way in, or intrude anywhere without an invitation, so I asked publically if the "Brotherhood" was open to new members, and if I could perhaps join in. A very kind gent, whom I now consider a good friend, replied without delay... "You are already in the Brotherhood..." I don't know if this gent remembers, but I have never forgotten.
I've never seen gents showing off, or attempting "one-upmanship" in the items used, or the photography itself. We all just do the best we can, and hope that someone viewing gets the same enjoyment and camraderie that I believe most of us feel.
So for myself, I get satisfaction from posting in "Shave of the Day." It supports the site itself, and I hope provides enjoyment for all the members... A very unselfish act, in my humble opinion. It does nothing to boost my ego, because my photographic skills can barely keep up with many of the talented posters, but I view us all as kindred spirits..

And, isn't that what these forums are all about?
Better a diamond with a flaw than a polished pebble...
2011-11-11 17:49